Dr. Immanuel Ness: “Imperialist wars benefit big capitalists in the most affluent states”
Dr. Immanuel Ness. DR.
Mohsen Abdelmoumen: In your very interesting book: Choke Points: Logistics Workers Disrupting the Global Supply Chain, you argue that global capitalism is a precarious system. Can you explain why?
Dr. Immanuel Ness: The
global economy is increasingly integrated in the production industry and
as such, individual nations are highly integrated for inputs which are
instrumental in transforming natural resources into fabricated elements
in commodities. This system is highly dependent on the transportation
of goods throughout the world. In this way, workers who are employed in
logistics and the moving of goods are integral to the continued flow of
commodities throughout the world. As goods are more and more produced
for specific consumer and market demands in destination countries in the
Global North, any disruption in this system scuppers the supply of
goods. Logistic workers are crucial in the distribution of fabricated
goods throughout the supply chain, and thus, have the potential to
interrupt the delivery of commodities in various stages of production.
Thus the notion of a choke point is rooted in the distribution system.
Thus choke points slow and stop the capitalist system’s necessity to
transform products at various stages in the global commodity chain.
This interruption has a significant impact on the delivery of essential
goods in a highly integrated global production system in which consumers
of goods at various stages are prevented from obtaining crucial inputs
into the system. Economic globalization and flexible production has
elevated reliance on the smooth and rapid delivery of goods. If this
system of transportation at key logistical points is interrupted or
broken in factories, trucking, rail transit, airports, shipping ports,
and warehouses, the delivery of these goods cannot reach production and
consumer markets and poses a risk to profitability. Thus global supply
chains intensify the significance of rapid and reliable transportation
of agricultural products, raw materials, and industrial goods fabricated
in factories that are increasingly dependent on contracting of
production to sub-contractors. This places capital in a potentially
precarious position, highly dependent on the delivery of ‘just in time
goods’ to markets.
In your opinion, is capitalism able to overcome the crises it generates?
Yes, capitalism in the current era has
dispersed workers through a range of production processes, facilities,
and contractors, thus mitigating the power of workers to disrupt global
commodity chains. While there are notable exceptions where workers in
logistics have been able to slow, and, in some cases, prevent the
production and transportation of commodities, workers do not have the
organizational power today to resist an overcome the overwhelming power
of capital. Moreover, there is a propensity of privileged workers in
logistics, namely shipping and dockworkers, who are paid very high
wages, and prefer not disrupting a system which has benefited them at
the expense of lower wage workers. In general, lower wage workers
produce commodities in agrarian and informal settlings and are typically
in Southern countries where wages are significantly lower than in the
metropolitan and settler-colonial states where finished consumer
products are typically sold to higher wage consumers. In addition, it
must be noted that trade unions are far weaker than they were in the
mid-to-late 20th century, during the Fordist era, when labor
negotiated far higher wages through their control of integrated
commodity production. Globalization and the growth of interstate
commodity chains severely weakens the power of labor to confront
capital. Until this power imbalance is addressed in labor’s favor,
multinational corporations will retain a dominant position.
Doesn’t claiming that there is no
alternative to capitalism reveal a powerlessness to create a system that
goes beyond capitalism, which has shown its limits?
No, we live in a world which is dominated
by capitalism, and indeed extensive struggles take place between labor
and capital. The problem is that most trade unions have been defeated
and any modicum of regulating rapacious labor markets is a formidable
challenge for the working class. In this way, going beyond capitalism
is nothing more than phrase mongering, as it is highly unlikely that
capitalism will be overcome in the near future.
Whilst it is possible that large states or regions can develop
socialist systems, it is likely that the global system will be dominated
by capitalism for decades to come. The main challenge is to restrict
the capacity of capitalism to penetrate fundamental aspects of social
life and to prevent capital from ineluctably commodifying essential
services: food, health, energy, housing, education, and so forth and so
on. The only way that an alternative can be achieved is on a state
level, and this requires a very strong state which is committed to
socialism to restrict and slowly confront capitalism. Such states must
be large and strong. Recent examples of the pink tide in Latin America
revealed the limitations of ‘going beyond capitalism’ without formidable
capacities to challenge multinational capital and the imperialist
states of the West and beyond which seek too commodify all social life.
Isn’t the capitalist system decimating entire populations and destroying the planet through its unbridled consumption patterns?
Yes, the capitalist system now in place,
neoliberal capitalism, has destroyed many of the social gains in the
post World War II era in the global North. While residents in the rich
countries of Europe, North America, Oceania, and beyond are whetted to
continuing consumption, and in fact, standards of living have grown and
not declined for the majority of the rich countries, we must understand
that the advanced capitalist countries account for perhaps one billion
of the 7.7 billion people who inhabit the planet. If the capitalist
system of the rich countries were replicated on a global scale, the
planet would cease to be inhabitable for the world’s population, where
commodities are not available to the vast proportion of the
populations. The consumption of rich countries at the expense of the
poor majority is driving the world to oblivion. Indeed recognition of
the devastating impact of capitalist commodity production has not led to
a decline in consumption in the West.
You’re a distinguished political
scientist and a unionist. Do you not think that we need more than ever
combative unions in the face of the ultraliberal offensive, job
insecurity, massive unemployment, etc.?
Yes, absolutely. But we do not only need
more combative unions, but stronger organizations. Today social
scientists who study labor have focused on weak combative organizations,
in the mould of the Industrial Workers of the World rather than strong
organization. Autonomous unions are viewed as a new form of labor
organization. What this perspective misses is that autonomous workers
have always engaged in struggle against the bosses. It is true that
many existing unions have become ossified and bureaucratic
organizations, and have lost their commitment to class struggle,
preferring to engage in concessionary bargaining with capital. But this
is primarily true because unions really do not have the power to
overcome capital. The Fordist factory is a bygone structure, and so too
are unions which represent large numbers of workers. Thus, it is not
only important to have combative unions, but strong unions. In my view,
these unions must align with strong and committed political parties
devoted to defeating capitalism and imperialism. In a way, this harkens
to early 20th century unions which were aligned to political
parties. Only today we must learn the lessons from successes and the
mistakes that were made in the past. But if the working class and the
vast majority of poor on the planet are to improve their lot, they must
have organization.
Isn’t there a strategic necessity to have a global workers front against capitalism and imperialism?
Of course it is always helpful to have
solidarity among workers on a global scale, but given the vast
differences in economic conditions that result from the value transfer
from Southern countries to the North, it is unlikely that workers in
rich countries will go against their economic interests and challenge
capitalism and imperialism. Take for example recent elections in Europe,
North America, Oceania, and OECD countries where we have a rise of
right-wing working class movements who object to immigrants, do not
challenge imperialist policies, and are more bent on increasing wages
and social welfare conditions than engaging in solidarity with workers
in Africa, Asia, and Latin America. You are correct that it is
necessary to have a global workers’ front, but in my view, this front
will come from oppressed workers in Southern countries, rather than
relatively well-to-do workers in the North.
Didn’t the bureaucratic unions abandon the working class struggle?
Yes, bureaucratic unions have abandoned
support for class struggles. They have ignored rank-and-file
spontaneous demands for improved wages, working conditions and social
benefits. But this is generally true of economistic organizations,
which is why it is necessary to also have a political commitment to
anti-capitalism and anti-imperialism. Whilst the struggle will be long
and drawn out, absent a dedicated vanguard party and leadership,
dedicated to the working class, the quotidian struggles of workers
documented in the numerous studies throughout the world, will not gain
any traction. Union bureaucracy is also a function of trade unions who
have accepted and advance capitalism and imperialism on every level.
Thus the International Confederation of Trade Unions (ITUC) advocates
for union forms which will take a subordinate position vis-à-vis
capital. This is true for national sectoral unions as well, with a
number of exceptions in Asia, Southeast Asia, and Southern Africa, where
unions reject a subordinate position and are committed to
anti-imperialism.
In your very important book for understanding the struggles of southern workers Southern Insurgency: The Coming of the Global Working Class, you
explore the new struggles of workers in southern countries such as
China, India and South Africa. What are the characteristics of the
workers’ struggle in these countries that you mention in your book?
Southern Insurgency: The Coming of the Global Working Class
reveals the expansion of class struggles in the global South to build
more responsible unions that are committed to class struggle, rather
than bureaucratic unions which are wedded to collaboration with
management, the state, and concessionary bargaining. The book shows
that workers everywhere are engaged in autonomous class power. Even in
China, workers’ develop independent bodies which seek to improve
conditions. While the characteristics of each of the struggles in the
auto industry, footwear production, and mining differ, workers power
originates and is generated by the rank-and-file activities of workers.
Sadly, unions, as economic bodies, are unable to expand demands to
include all workers. High levels of unemployment, low wages, and
dangerous conditions cannot be addressed on a national basis by workers’
assemblies, autonomous unions, and lack of dedicated and principled
leadership. The book honors the class struggles of workers in each of
these countries, which were the largest strikes during the 2010s, but it
also shows the limitations of these struggles to transform into
powerful forces for systemic national and regional change.
In Algeria, the autonomous unions
have proved their combativeness in contrast to the bureaucratic union
linked to the employers. Don’t you think that in order to be effective,
union movements need to free themselves from bureaucracy?
Yes, as noted, bureaucracy is a function
of economism, a narrower effort to defend workers in discrete
industries. In Algeria, autonomous unions have engaged in direct action
against employers and their combativeness are models for workers in
countries throughout the world. However, these unions must show they
have the capacity to transform into stronger organizations. In Algeria,
these movements have been repressed by state security forces. What is
necessary is for these unions to cohere into larger bodies with a
coherent leadership dedicated to the principles of the workers. Of
course unions must free themselves of bureaucracy, but it is important
not to equate bureaucracy with political and economic power. Autonomism
is an everyday practice which must be reinforced by the capacity to
break the capitalist system. While mass actions have been highly
impressive, the Algerian working class must be unified to demand
specific political and economic concessions from the state and capital.
You’ve done a remarkable work of anthology by publishing The International Encyclopedia of Revolution and Protest: 1500 to the Present in 8 Volumes, The Encyclopedia of Global Human Migration, and The Palgrave Encyclopedia Imperialism and Anti-Imperialism. To better fight capitalism, shouldn’t we arm ourselves with theoretical tools that you offer in particular through your books?
Education is always an important endeavour
and the more knowledge we have about the world around us and the
history of left movements over the past, we can learn from successes and
failures of the past. Each of these workers are aimed at showing the
panoply of resistance that the oppressed engage to advance their
interests. But they also show that in many instances political
movements face the strong arm of the state and capital, which typically
defeats these movements. It is important to fight to win rather than
fight to lose. Thus, the range of political currents that are presented
in the works show how various political movements have succeeded
through having the power to overwhelm the state and capital.
Incidentally, I am finishing a second edition to the Palgrave
Encyclopedia of Imperialism and Anti-Imperialism, which shows how
principled struggles which are rooted in reality, rather than utopian
objectives, are the most efficacious in improving the conditions of the
oppressed.
You’re editor of the Journal of Labor and Society.
Don’t you think that the struggling working class needs its own media
to counter the propaganda media that are in the hands of the power of
money?
Yes, without question there is a need for a
strong media to counter the propaganda that dominates the mainstream.
Workers need not just journals, but popular broadcasting, online
publications, film, literature, and beyond. It is an ever-present
reality that even in academia, left publications are under attack and
vulnerable as they are controlled by the major publishing houses which
generate billions of revenue every year: While the Journal of Labor and Society has
50,000 readers a year, publishers are interested in the bottom line and
profitability and frown against journals and publications which
challenge capitalism and imperialism. Those of us who oppose the
exploitative system of capitalism and imperialism must support journals
on the left. But they are few and far
between. Increasingly we are finding these journals abandoning their
principles of social justice for the sake of profitability, which is the
main indicator of success. I can name countless formerly left journals
which have adopted neoliberalism and have moved to the centre. We must
coddle and protect not just academic journals but all media which
challenge the unjust political and economic system.
We see more and more imperialist
wars unleashed for the benefit of the big capitalists and aimed at
plundering the wealth of the peoples. In your opinion, don’t the union
movement and other organizations of the combative left in the northern
countries have another fight to wage, and which is to affirm their
solidarity with the peoples of the South, the damned of the Earth?
I completely agree. The record of
resistance to imperialist war by the left is pathetic and weak. At
times, most leftists support war on the basis of contrived humanitarian
intervention. The trade unions in the US and
other imperialist countries often support the policy prescriptions of
the military, State Department, and the intelligence services. It will
require significant education to counter the imperialist agendas of the
northern countries, as there is little opposition. I am working on a
project on War as Sanctions, to demonstrate that sanctions are used as
an instrument of war in dozens of countries opposed by the US, Western
Europe, and their allies. Sanctions are a hybrid form of war that in
many cases kill more people than military conflict through lack of
access to food, medicine, sanitation, and other necessities. Women and
children are made especially vulnerable to economic sanctions.
Countries are incapable of rebuilding infrastructure after the
devastation of wars. These wars and sanctions disproportionately are
waged against the Southern States in Southwest Asia, North Africa,
Africa South of the Sahara, Latin America and the Caribbean. Imperialist
wars benefit big capitalists in the most affluent states, and, as you
say, plunder the wealth of the peoples and create more misery. I don’t
see the union movement and the left in the Northern countries engaging
in solidarity. In this case, opposition comes from generally small
principled groups who recognize that these wars benefit the North.
Thus, while the western media often objects to the cost of war, they
refer to the dollars expended by the US, Europe, and other western
countries, not the cost inflicted on the Southern countries. However,
we in the West should not be let off the hook just because our countries
are beneficiaries of imperialist war. We must struggle every day to
change the calculus and oppose war. This is our task, this is our
responsibility. I am completing three new books in the coming year
covering these subjects.
Mohsen Abdelmoumen
Who is Dr. Immanuel Ness?
Dr. Immanuel Ness is Professor in
Political Science at the Brooklyn College of the City University of New
York. He is a scholar of worker’s organization, mobilization and
politics and a labor activist. His work has led him to travel in many
countries, primarily in North America, Asia, and Africa. Dr. Ness
research and published scholarly work focuses on political economy of
labor movements, workers social organization, Global South relations,
socialism and contemporary imperialism. He is co-editor of Journal of Labor and Society. Dr. Ness is also Senior Research Associate, Centre for Social Change, University of Johannesburg.
Immanuel Ness was a trade union organizer
and labor activist from 1989 to 2011. During this period, he learned to
advocate on behalf of disconnected jobless workers to organize their own
association directly at New York State unemployed offices. In 1990, he
founded the New York Unemployed Committee. Notably, he worked with
Mexican workers, unions, and community organizations in New York City to
establish a Code of Conduct for migrant laborers in 2001 who were paid
below minimum wage.
Dr. Ness received his Ph.D. at Graduate School & University Center, CUNY.
He is author and editor of numerous
articles and academic and popular books on labor, worker insurgencies
and trade unions. His books: Choke Points: Logistics Workers Disrupting the Global Supply Chain (2018), Global Perspectives on Workers’ and Labour Organizations (2018), Urban Revolt: State Power and the Rise of People’s Movements in the Global South (2017), The Palgrave Encyclopedia of Imperialism and Anti-Imperialism (2016), Southern Insurgency: The Coming of the Global Working Class (2015), New forms of worker organization : the syndicalist and autonomist restoration of class-struggle unionism (2014), Encyclopedia of Global Human Migration (2013), Guest Workers and Resistance to U.S. Corporate Despotism (2011), Ours to Master and to Own: Workers’ Control from the Commune to the Present (2011), International Encyclopedia of Revolution and Protest: 1500 to the Present (2009), The Encyclopedia of Strikes in American History (2009), Encyclopedia of American Social Movements (2005), Immigrants Unions and the New U.S. Labor Market (2005), Central Labor Councils and the Revival of American Unionism: Organizing for Justice in Our Communities (2001), Trade Unions and the Betrayal of the Unemployed: Labor Conflicts During the 1990’s. (1998).
Dr. Ness received several awards, honors
and fellowships, such as the Best Book Award for 2011-2012, United
Association for Labor Education (UALE), Annual Conference, Toronto,
Canada, April 2013, Guest Workers and Resistance to U.S. Corporate
Despotism, Immanuel Ness (Awards and Honors) 2013; Center for Place
Culture and Politics, The Graduate Center, City University of New York,
Fellow, 2010-11 Academic Year (Grants and Fellowships) 2011; the
American Publishers Award for Professional and Scholarly Excellence,
American Library Association, Honorable Mention (Awards and
Honors) 2009; the Christian Bay Award, American Political Science
Association, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (Awards and Honors) 2006; Best
Reference Source, Library Journal, Encyclopedia of American Social
Movements, Routledge (Awards and Honors) 2005.
He is also a distinguished guest speaker
at numerous conferences, seminars and symposia around the world. Among
other activities, Dr. Ness is Founder and Chair of the New York Peace
Council, Official branch of US Peace Council and World Peace Council.
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